Torture began at the top

JJP:

The Los Angelos Times is a corporat newspaper, with class elites, Western journalists, who appease criminality, justify class ideologies, and make excuses for their masters. Calling those who oppose war crimes, the left, as crazy, is typically corrupting class liberal B.S. appeasing shills. The Nuremberg trials and war crimes would be called of by this appeasing journalist, who hopes to ingratiate himself with both the corporate fascism of American Empire, and if he was German, in the 30's would feel comfortable, justifying this class and imperial rot.

Boycott the Los Angelos Times, boycott the corporate news, by going to alternative press to say what needs to be said, and still take on the corporate press and its shills.

renard,...I agree for the most part but I do have some questions. This administration has indeed cost us a great deal. Not only money but also in prestige. They placed us as axle in the axis of evil. These are indeed grave times. To waste bringing suit against them would further squander what little wealth they have not plundered and waste valuable time. If we, however, turn them over to the international court we would save money and bother. (A court that they have tried to quash.) Would we in this action surrender sovereignty? What would happen internationally if we admit to such a failure of democracy? Would we become as disgraced as Germany after WWII? What would it do to our Constitution? There must be some recognition of the wrong they have done but how do we punish them without punishing us?

Pamela,...Thanks for the clarification of issues. It's difficult to bring what has happened and what must happen into focus. If there is no law we are no longer a state.

trex,...Why would they pressure the commanders at Guantanamo to get information about
WMD they knew weren't there? Did they really believe in their own gloss of intelligence?
I agree that the reference to Salem is appropriate. It calls to mind Miller's "The Crucible."
But I think that Pamela's point about pre-planning is obvious. Like a tragedy W was trying to right the errors of his father. That's where it gets scary. It's mythic and I'm not talking heroic. I'm talking a really horrible, downer opera. An unenlightened version of Dr. Strangelove.

jade-log, I think Bush and Cheney really managed to convince themselves that their propaganda about WMD was true. I also think that as the occupation turned out to be more difficult than they'd expected, they started to panic about how bad it looked that the WMD weren't turning up. Before the war, they probably figured that even if the WMD turned out not to exist, it wouldn't matter, because we would have already won our glorious victory, Iraq would be free and peaceful, and everyone would be too happy to care about the bad information. Well, oops! The American public wanted to know in the summer of '03 just why so many of our men were still dying, and Bush/Cheney had to produce a reason. Torture, as you may recall, is an excellent way to extract false confessions from people, and to produce "information" that suits your needs whether or not it is true.

trex,...It's like a nightmare of the Monty Python sketch of Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition. Just trying to get my mind around the possibilities of what has occurred is more psychedelic than anything that happened in the 60s. It's the end of the world as we know it. I need time to absorb this.

I agree with y'all that this editorial writer skids off course at the end.

More like a terminal velocity nose dive... but yeah, this guy is making no distinction between poor or misguided policy, and outright deception, complete disregard for the Constitution, and ignoring the Geneva Convention (which we are a signatory of). He wrote a good article and came to a less than brilliant conclusion.

Rummy has warrants out for his arrest in Europe, and they're no joke. He probably doesn't travel much these days.

LisaG,...You're increasing my anxiety. These guy are guilty but I think they could plead insanity.

It's true that there are a handful of European rights activists and people on the lacy left fringe of American politics who would dearly like to see such trials, but actually pursuing them would be a profound -- even tragic -- mistake. Our political system works as smoothly as it does, in part, because we've never criminalized differences over policy. Since Andrew Jackson's time, our electoral victors celebrate by throwing the losers out of work -- not into jail cells.

The Bush administration has been wretchedly mistaken in its conception of executive power, deceitful in its push for war with Iraq and appalling in its scheming to make torture an instrument of state power. But a healthy democracy punishes policy mistakes, however egregious, and seeks redress for its societal wounds, however deep, at the ballot box and not in the prisoner's dock.

This is an interesting assertion considering that democratic societies (British, French, U.S.) criminalized the actions perpetrated by members of the Nazi party at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials from 1945 to 1949. Eleven of the accused were sentenced to death. Granted, Nazi war crimes were among the most heinous ever. The torture inflicted on detainees at Guantanamo and at Abu Ghraib, however, certain qualifies as war crimes.

trex-138069

Rummy has warrants out for his arrest in Europe, and they're no joke. He probably doesn't travel much these days.

All of the Bush administration lawyers who had a hand in manipulating the Geneva Conventions to make torture permissible are at risk of criminal investigation if they travel abroad.

Pamela Drew

And here in America Congress can't/won't get these guys to appear or testify under oath!

The Bush administration has expended tremendous energy in trying to prevent any of their politically appointed officials to be brought before Congress to testify. I'm sure you remember Condi Rice (on the intelligence report) and Alberto Gonzales (on the firing of the lawyers). Even once they finally had to appear at the hearings, all we got were lies, deflections and sudden loss of memory.

jade-log

LisaG,...You're increasing my anxiety. These guy are guilty but I think they could plead insanity.

I'm sorry if I'm making your palms sweat, but I don't think insanity would pass as a plausible defense. The effort to use torture to extract information and confessions went too deep and went on for too long with a very definitive goal to say that members of the administration didn't realize what they were doing. Quite the contrary.

All of this is fully documented and public. The American people seem to have accepted this type of corruption and demand nothing. I wonder if we can even remember what our government is supposed to be. It's extremely disheartening and dangerous.

LisaG,...I'm pretty new here and just getting my bearings. I always thought I was just paranoid. It's breathtaking to discover I am not neurotic. I really don't think most Americans would be interested in these considerations or facts presented. They are too involved with Livitra, skin creams, video gaming, money, etc.

jade-log

LisaG,...I'm pretty new here and just getting my bearings. I always thought I was just paranoid. It's breathtaking to discover I am not neurotic. I really don't think most Americans would be interested in these considerations or facts presented. They are too involved with Livitra, skin creams, video gaming, money, etc.

Welcome to Newsvine, jade-log. I appreciate your involvement in the discussions.

It does seem that Americans are suffering from widespread apathy. The dumbing-down of America appears to be working fabulously. I read many assertions on Newsvine that seem to have no basis in fact--it's more like first impressions not backed up by anything truthful. That is dangerous and plain ignorant. We need our public involved in who is in our government and how it works. You know, the old "government of the people, by the people and for the people."

I suppose the question is, how do we accomplish that?

Pamela Drew

Touché!

Regardless of what the critics claim, I say it's never too late for impeachment. At least we could make a statement--finally.

Good point, maestrojed.

Allabove,...I'm afraid to state my case but I will anyway. In #4.2 I asked some questions and some have been answered. Where would such criminals be tried? Here or abroad?

I have taught students from Iraq and Iran and what was done to them in Abu Garaib is unthinkable torture. To touch a dog is unclean. To have women's underwear on your person is emasculating. And if what I read here is true, they have been so offended by sexual attack that the believers think that paradise is no longer possible.

To try them here would be a miscarriage of justice. No jury of peers or judge is culturally aware enough to deal with THEIR cultural issues. For them there is one preferred hope, martyrdom. This is not a wise precedent. If the perpetrators of these crimes are not addressed, this will indeed become the Mother of All Wars.

One of the most powerful effects of the impeachment process is to take away the plenary power of the executive to claim what is usually referred to as "executive privilege". The Bush administration has used this power to obstruct justice. Every single attempt by Congress to perform one of their primary functions, i.e. oversight of the executive, has been stymied by an absolute refusal to cooperate with any investigation no matter how small the perceived infraction, indeed when no infractions are even expected to be found. They have gone as far as to ban former members of the administration from testifying AND claiming that White House emails stored (and mysteriously "lost") on nongovernmental Republican Party servers (a practice itself strictly banned by an Orin Hatch sponsored 1990s bill nonetheless) is subject to claims of executive privilege. Anyone who believes that the administration would go to such extreme measures to hide their activities from a pathetically timid Congress merely on principle is drinking some kickass koolaid.

The moment that articles of impeachment are approved by a simple majority of the House, this privilege is removed. The investigation portion of the impeachment can then proceed unimpeded by the executive privilege claim. From the information that has been discovered through investigations or leaks to date, the appearance of guilt for numerous impeachable offenses is overwhelming. Removing the obstructions from the investigation and conducting a highly public proceeding would amount to a nationally televised truth and reconciliation commission. With the flood of evidence it would likely produce, the pressure on sitting Republican congressmen to impeach would be enormous. In order to avoid the embarrassment of a subsequent Senate impeachment trial, prominent Republicans would likely ask for resignations of Cheney and Bush (who BTW would be impeached simultaneously).

Unfortunately given political reality, it is probably historians that will eventually indict this administration, long after the principles are buried and their descendants live in luxurious wealth, completely unaware of or concerned with how that wealth came to be in their hands. Welcome to America.

youth in asia

You describe pretty much what I've been saying for quite some time now: We're living under a fascist regime. God help us all.

youth in asia.

somebody tag this guy right now.

No one will care any more about the Geneva Convention, when it comes to captured Americans.

I'm afraid they might care very much. It would be an opportunity to get even with a nation that keeps beating its chest and telling the world that we're the greatest country in the world. The higher you are, the harder you fall.

This is a huge concern among officers in the military, especially the Marines and Army. It is one of the many points overlooked by the Fighting 101st Keyboard Brigade who are so gung ho to right any wrong and challenge every perceived threat with US armed force. All hail the brave men and women of the great Fighting 101st Keyboard Brigade! - bravely challenging anyone who will question the actions of the Bush regime from the hostile environment of the basement apartment in their mother's house. Boo Ya!

youth in asia,...Where in Asia? Seriously, certainly anyone can see that sexual activity outside of marriage is a commonplace in this culture. Maybe not nice but a fact. To list the spectrum of "deviant activities" in the government would entail volumes. The Clinton impeachment was in fact an impeachment of misdemeanors. I could not define any purpose.

If this administration were to face impeachment it would be on grounds of high crimes. If their is any shred of justice left in this land we must be able to see that Clinton's tasteless sexual activities do not balance on the scales of justice with the abominable distortions of war, profiteering, torture and deceit. (I hope that's not a run on.)

...if criminals are allowed to commit crimes without paying any price, they will continue...to commit crimes

You are tagged.

Emily, I don't know how the whole you are tagged thing goes, but I want this guy to tell us 8 things about himself.

Sorry to creep into your seed Pamela, we should find out about this one, no?

Already tagged Pamela. Thanks for being patient.

1) Rather than pretending the legal loophole he exploited isn't there, let's close it.

2) To cover up war crimes or to dodge a witch hunt? I think there might be a litte of both. But only if you stretch your definition of "War Crime" quite a bit.

3) The president didn't deceive congress, they (well some of their committees) have access to the same information he does. Those intelligence committees came to the same conclusion he did. Being wrong and being a liar are not the same unless you know you're wrong at the time.

4) That charge applies to everyone in politics. It's called pork. Are you saying only Congress should be doing it? OR do you want to impeach about 600 people? And it's spelled "fleece"

5) Ooh. Gotcha on that one. Whether or not the U.S. Constitution should or shouldn't apply to non-citizens who are NOT on American soil is irrelevant. Fact is, it doesn't. When non-Americans outside America start paying American taxes and register with selective service, they can have my rights, too.

your question reminds me of a dilemma that I saw acted out in a movie, a woman was faced with choosing the son of her womb which was evil or her nephew who was good, she was trying to keep both from going over a cliff which ever one she let go was going to die. But she could only save one it was a very emotional decision, whether to save her evil bad son or her good nephew, in the end she chose good over evil

moral equivocation has long term cost and almost never any benefits when you choose to ignore evil, or go along with things you know are wrong you pay a price and some times the price is to great..

Our Congress has failed the country both the Republican led Congress and the Democratic led Congress, with the only exception being that the Democrats to their credit did bring the Articles of Impeachment to the floor. George Bush is like the evil bad son and the Constitution is like the good son, Congress is like the mother, and its has been Congress inability to make the tough decision, that may have very well cost the United States both the Presidency and the Constitution. The law is a idea that men have accepted to live their lives by, for it to mean something to every body, it has to apply to every body even the President.

James, you're using the "ticking bomb" scenario, but that scenario is and always has been strictly hypothetical. Let's suppose that another 9/11 style attack is imminently about to happen, and you're interrogating someone about it. What are the chances that a) you just happened to capture the one guy who knows the whole story and can give you all the information you need to abort the plot, and that b) if you tortured him he'd tell you the truth?

In the real world, a lot of people who are "interrogated" under torture really and truly don't know anything -- like the 21 year old Afghani cab driver who was beaten to death in U.S. custody. Others may make stuff up just to make the torture stop, and others may deliberately give bad information that will send U.S. troops into ambushes. That's one reason why the commanders on the ground in Iraq hate that kind of "information;" they know that it's usually somewhere between useless and deadly.